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Grace Holloway   info


Killing Grace ... :

I recently (in a BS2 playthru) paid Grace a visit (after having to listen to her bile yet again) and using  the cheats (ghost/fly) and put some Trap Rivets in her little spider-hole.  I went back to normal outside to  approach via the original sequence (hidden button/wipe the porthole) and heard a Trap Rivet fire, but her  little 'evil tin daddy' monologue continued as normal and on entry you could whack her repeatedly with little  effect (her programmed scripting probably flagged as already dead, so wouldnt trigger her falling down  'death' animation).   After taking the key and getting Sinclair's "killed her" message (while she was still  standing there) I left and the the game went on following the normal sequence of her being dead (Sofia's  blatherings, etc...).   Not really a bug, as its not a situation that would happen in the normally played  game.

But thats what happens when you have choreographed scenes that normally dont allow you to do anying else (cuz  it breaks the script's logic otherwise).   Generalized adaptive/versatile object behavior takes several  hundred times as much scripting logic - which is why games mostly DONT do it that way (it is expensive ($$$)  and ALOT more work to test, to make it work correctly).

As for killing Grace, it might have been interesting(creative/imaginitive), that if you let her live, she  goes on (as you try to leave the Sinclair Deluxe) to order all her followers (like ~30) to Zerg Rush you and  to kill you (if you dont run like heck for the Train).  That teaches you that making 'moral choices' about  people you really dont know/understand can lead to your ruin/destruct (and worse - Failure to save Eleanor).   It was rather convenient for Grace to suddenly change after ALL her years of obsession and hatred,  AND her  seeing/being part of what evils Sofia Lamb did (and not just standing by, but helping).

-

Reason to kill Grace Holloway :

--- Anyone else figure that it was Grace Holloway that fingered Delta and led Sofia to him so that she could  force Delta to kill himself ??

--- And for all her talk about 'baby eleanor' and what Delta did to her, that she has sided with Sofia Lamb  who is out kidnapping (many) dozens of other small children and convincing members of 'The Family' to kill  themselves for Sofia's mad delusion -- but then  *of course* Grace knows NOTHING of that .....

--- Unfortunately you dont really get to make a 'moral choice' to kill the real villain of the game (Sofia),  just a few of her murderous minions are in reach .. OK .

I dont know why I didnt realize it earlier.  Maybe it was all the 'talk' that Grace did that is supposed to  invoke your compassion, and the talk of her boss Sofia kidnapping alot more children (from Tenenbaum) is so  meager/limited in the game, or just the rest of the events of game being a distraction (particularly the  first time when everything is new/unknown and dark and scary).

Sofia Lamb's death is pretty indirect (in the end-case it happens), and I doubt many Players could (without  previously seeing it) predict/tell/expect which way the endings would actually go/happen.

Hard to miss Grace ranting about what terrible thing had happened to "little 'baby' Eleanor" which *of  course* is so COMPLETELY different than what happened to all those other little children.   New Little  Sisters somehow showing up (and Lamb (Graces boss) does run the place) - its not too hard to guess who caused  it  to happen (Grace only had 8 years to figure that out...).  Either she didn't care to know or it didnt  matter.

Not easy to miss 'The Family' at those little altars, with Splicers(people at least) offered up to the Little  Sister vents.   Hard for Grace to miss THAT going on -- that too was going on for quite a while before Delta  showed up,  and it was made pretty obvious by Father Wales' rants (which Grace could not have missed  hearing).   Grace must have a different understanding of what is happening when lots of susceptible people  get 'talked into suicide'.  

Oh, and that bit about killing 'Unbelievers' -- yet ANOTHER thing Grace could hardly fail to know about.  ""Nonbelievers are not welcome here anymore"" written under murdered people on display... 
Willful ignorance??  No, sorry.  When you side with Hitler and do his bidding, you dont really have any  excuse....   Hard to ignore those very definitely murdered people nailed to the walls (with the Bibles next  to them) and labeled as 'Unbelievers', when Lamb's old message was 'all are welcome'....   And Grace calls  Delta a "monster".

With all the venom that Grace spewed at Delta, you would think she would have a general aversion to 'stealing  children', and turning them into the little ghouls like what had happened to Eleanor.   The horrors  perpetrated for  'Lambs Utopia' did not seem to matter when it was Eleanor at stake.

If she really cared about Eleanor, then shouldn't she have tried to deny the Key to the Metal Monster" by  flushed it down the nearest convenience or garbage chute (a simple thing to do to try to save Eleanor from  the "Monster")??   Or did she just want to keep the Power she had (the Key) and got cornered at the last  minute?? - Perhaps if she simply handed it over, she might "save herself" ??

Many of the 'people killed' in Looney Lambville were NOT threatening Rapture or The Family.   Instead, they  were "martyrs" who were talked into giving their lives (suicide?) to feed the Little Sisters, so they could  be joined into that 'First Utopian' Sofia kept going on about (listen to Wales rants).  That of course  doesn't include all those murdered because they suddenly were NOT the 'right' religion (Lamb's/Wales brand)   or resisted Sofia Lamb's insanity.

-

After you 'saved' (didnt kill) Grace,  the Splicers in Paupers Drop continued to attack you.   No "Big Daddy  is Our Friend now, so give him flowers and wave as he goes on his way...." from Grace.  'Changed' Grace did  not seem to do much to stop the murderous mayhem.   Perhaps she did not have as much control as she thought  and only mouthed Sofia Lamb's words and directives (and the Splicers followed orders 'or else').  

Grace now supposedly had some "questions" for Sofia, but what do you think the odds of Grace soon "Joining  with the Utopian" or "Feeding the fishes" now would be ???

-

Sorry, 'ignorance' (especially willful ignorance) is no defense, especially from someone who is supposed to  be a Leader.

Grace was in a good postion to know what was going on (and apparently 'bought into' Lamb's little nazi state)  and went along with it (killing unbelievers, talking people into martyring themselves, the mad/crazy  delusional rantings, the new Little Sisters, and the rest of it).   She could hardly 'not know' all of that  was going on, despite whatever 'lies' she was told.

Graces 'motives' sound hypocritical and selfish when you put it all together.

--

It might have been interesting : that if you let Grace live, she goes on (as you try to leave the Sinclair Deluxe) to order all her Splicer followers (like 30 of them...) to Zerg Rush you and kill you (if you dont run like heck for the train).  That teaches you that making 'moral choices' about people you really dont understand can lead you to your ruin (and failure to save Eleanor).  It was rather convenient for Grace to suddenly change her stripes after all her years of obsession, and seeing what Lamb had done (and not just standing by , but helping in the subjugation and murder).


--- --- ---

More Reasons in the game to kill Grace (Delta has a Mission) :

You witness :
--- New Little Sisters roaming Rapture (including in Graces area - yet she raves about 'poor Eleanor' going  thru that),
--- "Unbelievers" crucified on walls and others lie left right and center at Graces feet.
--- The Rapture Family members being convinced to kill themselves and offering themselves up to 'The Lamb'  (Grace is oblivious to Sofias crazy murderous delusion?)
--- All that stuff Wales constantly Ranted (pseudo religious gobbledeeguck about her 'Little Eleanor').

SO in the end, she is "Unarmed" ??? -  but with hordes of dangerous minions she had already previously sent  to kill you....  No reason why she should not continue to do that after you let her live.  How could you  trust her?   YOUR MISSION is to get to Eleanor and if YOU were playing for keeps (like assuming in hard mode  if you died "thats it, you failed, period.") you would NOT want to risk having any more of her nasties (or  worse) after you.   You simply cannot trust Grace.  First time you play thru you have no idea what is going  to happen.   You have to judge things from the context upto that point (and not after a replay when you  already know what WILL happen from your decisions, for those obscured different 'endings').

YOU BELIEVE you are Eleanor's Daddy, coming to SAVE HER, and NOTHING will be allowed to stop you.

You are offered no other option - kill Grace with one blow or leave her alive to do whatever she wants. 
--- No taking her hostage after taking the Key, to get safely to the Train,
--- No Grace taking her secret exit chute, leaving the key behind for you.
--- Similarly, after years of bitterness and her revenge-desiring bile boiling inside,  she suddenly changes  AND starts helping you.  "Tin Daddy dont change", "Gonna get the Monster that took my Eleanor"...
--- No abusing your mercy and calling all the rest of her Splicer horde down upon you -- and simultaneously  attack with the 2 security Bots (she gave you - ?? but somehow didnt bother to use to protect hereself).
--- Why does Grace just hand you the Key ? (remember even at that point she assumes you are the  'Evil Baby Stealing  Monster".  (nice fake key that sets off a trap? nah not enuf time...)  
--- No flushing the Security Key down the nearest toilet to keep you away from 'her baby Eleanor'. (forcing  you have to find an alternate way to get train going..)
--- No locked the security door you HAVE to batter your way thru (remember Grace lives amongst Splicers who can  tend to become homicidal crazies at odd times and there are PLENTY of other doors you cant seem to open).

The problem with these games is they are so heavily choreographed and linear (and expensive enough even just to get that, let alone long alternatepaths with different outcomes).   Replaying the game offered little difference -- you  know what is going to happen every time. ---

Tin Daddy Bad :

Grace Holloway apparently 'dont like Tin Daddies' and they are frequently under attack in her 'area' in Paupers Drop
( http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/File:PaupersDrop_16.jpg ). You would think that Sofia Lamb would not want the Big Daddies/Little Sisters interfered with in all the areas of her collectivist fiefdom -- to protect her ADAM production/recovery for the 'big' project.
'The Rapture Family' Splicers keep dying/killing themselves to make the Little Sisters blood drinking act worth the bother. (Lamb went to all that trouble to bring in new Little Sisters from the Surface).  With fewer Daddies and Lil Sisters reporting in (getting back to Persephone somehow...), Sofia might have been wondering which of her other sycophants she could get to run the Paupers Drop (and one more corpse for the dump into the Abyss).

Grace was likely the one who 'fingered' Delta and led Lamb to him and Eleanor, and stood by while Lamb ordered/forced Delta to commit suicide.  But then Grace stood by while countless members of the 'Rapture Family' were coerced into 'sacrificing' themselves for Lamb's grand project.  Overlooking 'non-believers' being murdered and new Little Sisters being kidnapped and converted (recall her ravings about 'baby Eleanor'), Grace seems to have 'stood by' for alot of things. ---

Still Alive ?

- Grace might still be in Pauper's Drop by the time of MMORPG - that is if after Lamb's demise she really had any influence other than handing out goodies that Lamb provided (the supply of which now either dried up or someone else has control of and likely would dispense with Grace Holloway's services).  Where the food comes from - would require connecting/cooperating with other remaining minions of Lamb's little fiefdom to continue the flow of supplies.  Apparently, if the 'evil' Jack decided to 'let her have it', then he only 'winged her'......

.---

Going thru Paupers Drop again (starving artists...) :

I still havent figured out why someone like Grace would come to Rapture.  She says how bad it is when times  get hard (for everyone), blames he situation on alleged racism, yet is suprised that noone has money anymore  to pay for her performances.  Again, I wonder why any artist of accomplishment would even come to Rapture  with its limited audiences, unless they were a failure on the Surface or someone's sycophant.  - Freedom for  artists generally was the case in the West on the Surface unless the real motive is escaping from a police  state or a criminal record (obscenity laws did still exist), a career ruining scandal or somesuch.  And as  far as making money, what is considered garbage on the Surface would likely be most often considered garbage  in Rapture.  Still there might be sufficient 'rich people' for the art critics to work their flim-flam on.

--

Grace Holloway is rendered penniless ??

http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Closing_the_Limbo_Room    :

Grace Holloway - "That's it -- we have to close down the Limbo.  Bomb goes off in that fancy place uptown, and everybody panics... pulls their money out of the banks... a whole city tuggin' on the same dollar bill.  So the banks fold, and maybe one in ten got their savings out... who's going to come hear me nightingalin' about how broke they are?   How am I going to provide for little Eleanor?"

That is talking about the Kashmir incident in 1959 isnt it? - sounds like she was working upto that point of   time. 

AT that point she doesnt sound 'blackballed' by Ryan to me.  (blackballed usually meant to block from  working for having sympathies most employer(s) would NOT want representing/associated with their businesses)

Poorer times from a previous economic crisis (1952 ?), but she seems to have survived that.  She says people  treated her like dirt? (Some kind of allegation of racism?)  Why would any performer with talent actually go  to Rapture with it having so small an audience.  Possibly Grace just didnt think she got the acclaim she  thought she was due (same reason she left the surface???)   Doesnt Cohen blame Ryan when the "audiences dont  ever come", when it is actually in the middle of the Civil War (and people fear to go out even to get food)?

How soon did she arrive (what state in the World)? ( at least by mid 50s with the Eleanor involvement). Post  WW2 boom times and she couldnt make it up there??  Not sure what kind of vetting Ryans people did, as Grace  sounds like someone who plainly has sympathies for 'parasitism'.

Singing songs against Ryan, but not against Atlas ... and Atlas's terrorists were the onces who caused the  last 'crash' and shutdown her workplace (but then "those fatcats in the Kashmir probably 'deserved it.." ).

-

Grace Blackballed ??

Apparently for handing out seditious pamphlets and singing against Andrew Ryan in the middle of the Civil  War ??  But then what places were still open during the Civil War?  How can she not realize this except as  an excuse?

Atlas's Splicers are murdering people in the streets, disrupting Rapture's economy, possibly threatening  even the sustinance of the population ---  and Grace is helping that side ??

War changes things.  Tightened security, rationing, clamping down on free speech supporting the enemy...  Most of the people in Rapture came out of WW2 when such measures were routine if not supported by the majority as neccessary.

Freedom is one thing. Freedom to assist the enemy murder/destroy your (or others) world is another thing.

.

How did Grace maintain control ('Governor' of Paupers Drop...) ?

Splicers might not be the most rational of people (or we just seem to have been exposed to low-rational end of the bell-curve?).   Maybe the smart ones largely hid when we were rampaging about.

Anyway, how would Grace maintain control of them for Sofia Lamb ?  Carrot and Stick ?  Bribing/extorting with ADAM/food or thuggery/murder to convince all the inhabitants to 'play nice'?  

Of course having the 'powers to convince' is useful to any leader, though to what extent it works with Splicers is debatable.  Threats to miscreants that Sofia Lamb will 'take care of them' might be the biggest controlling factor.


Field_Trial             King of the Jungle ? 


Leo_Hartwig       Enforcer??  Big happy families dont really need 'enforcers' do they??



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