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A disagreement about a certain wiki's content containing opinions instead of fact...

Excerps of a disagreement about speculation being presented as fact in that other WIKI in its main articles (After many 'Talk' postings I made about various main article text being just opinion, I then started adding an alternate opinion. They started stating  : there was to be 'no speculation/opinion presented on the pages' -- AFTER I offered more than a few different interpretations of the game content to the many interpretation already there. I then did alot of REMOVAL of a all opinion and assumptions and interpretations. Certain people there didn't like that :



A Small Issue

I'm have an issue with one of the wiki contributors and I was hoping you could intervene. User:xxxxxxxxxxxx (occasionally known as some other nameless Wiki Contributor with the numbers xxxx… at the beginning of the IP address or User:xxxxxxxxxx when he bothers to sign in) has been engaged in a campaign to make Andrew Ryan and Augustus Sinclair look like poor, victimized pawns in a world stacked against them.

I wouldn't object to this normally as I believe he's entitled to his own opinion. However, I feel that some of the recent edits he's made have crossed a line. His edits on September 12th to The Sinclair Deluxe article border between overly biased revisionism and trolling. To summarize:

In the middle of the line "Though attractive enough to draw people in, the hotel was constructed with cheap materials," he writes "what did you expect parkay flooring and carrera marble?" as a reference link. Later on, between "Even in Rapture's heyday, Sinclair himself called the hotel a "slum" and its rooms "ratholes."," he interjects with "But compare it to Hestia Chambers or Artemis Suites - looks pretty good by comparison - and as seen in BS2 it is 7+ years after Sofia Lamb became the landlord" again treating it like a reference.

He's also removed or altered several lines of text in that article he either doesn't like or finds biased against Sinclair (though it seems difficult to be objective with a character who's an inch away from a Snidely Whiplash cartoon). The same act has been done in the Sinclair Spirits article because he objects to evidence used from the diary Sinclair Deluxe & Sinclair Spirits. The whole debate is oultined on the Talk Page where he refuses to listen to opposing arguments from his peers.

Again, I'm not trying to stop him from voicing his opinion, as his criticisms against the wording on some of the pages have improved the objectivity of the Wiki. He often brings up some very good points about the game designers' personal agendas with the series. I agree with him that the BioShock series could be seen as being anti-corporation and anti-capitalist games, but he's using the articles and Talk Pages as his personal soap box. I apologize for dragging you into this, but I've previously found that speking to him about the subject is only a temporary fix. I hope that he'll listen to an Admin if you talk to him as you have more authority than I do. Talk to him or do nothing, whatever you decide, I'll respect your decision. Thanks for your time. YYYYYYYYYYYYYY (talk) 22:58, September 13, 2014 (UTC)


^^^

On the other hand the edits remove biased descriptions that are not seen actually in the game.   If you want to be consistent with what you've (xxxxxxxxxxxx)said before then  the text should NOT include such biases.   "Sinclair built his hotel out of inferior materials" (so its the reason its now falling down ??)   Where does it state that in the game ?   Its just a biased assumption.  Take a look at the rest of Rapture (even the BS1 state of other (??) 'well built' parts of Rapture - and in BS2 we have Sinclair Deluxe viewed 7+ years after that ...)     MY other WIKI changes are similar.

You claim The Sinclair Deluxe Hotel was built after the Big Crash (a whole seperate argument) ??   When is that said to have happened (in-game) ?  I've postulated at length that 'Crash' was long before Kashmir (conclusion was last left undecided) - you think Sinclair built the Sinclair Deluxe AFTER the civil war had begun ?? That's another one of the of the unsupported assumptions I've removed from that article ... also.

Similarly the Sinclair Spirits issues : you base your position on a *REMOVED* audio diary  (again it might be best to put that in trivia instead of a main section where it would be misinterpretted as Canon)  - anyway read the Diary  for what it says, not what you assume it says (as I last stated).

There is no Sinclair Spirits in Paupers Drop  (probably why they removed the diary -- because it didn't make sense anymore)

I can stop using 'references' to make commentary (I dont think Ive done that before anywhere)  and that was done instead of removing the original interpretaion by the original writer for those 'points'. 


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"refuses to listen to opposing arguments"  

???

I listened and the responded by refuting them - and the argument is still going on... (on the talk page)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 08:16, September 14, 2014 (UTC)



VVVV mod responds

I'm all for factual accuracy, but statements of opinion, speculation and commentary are not for the mainspace. So, for example, stating that the Sinclair Deluxe was in shabby condition would be accurate and worth adding, as it's mentioned in Audio Diaries and the like, but justifying why it's in such a shabby condition would fall under commentary. Looking at the Sinclair Spirits discussion, I'm siding with yyyyyyyyyy here: it's pretty clear Sinclair is talking about himself combining Sinclair Spirits with the Sinclair Deluxe to fleece the population, and it should be noted as such. --zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (talk) 08:58, September 14, 2014 (UTC)

^^^

Shabby condition is NOT whats being debated here - how it got that way is.

This is what the main wiki article says : "Though attractive enough to draw people in, the hotel was constructed with cheap materials." 'constructed with cheap materials' is an assumption/speculation isn't it ?   The ref notes was just an experiment to see how it worked,  but now shouldn't the verbage it was commenting/refuting instead be eliminated?

As for the Sinclair Spirits & Sinclair Deluxe  - as mentioned, THAT audio diary was never included in-game  yet its being quoted in 2 different articles as if it is Canon in the main sections.   There is no sign of a Sinclair Spirits at Paupers Drop/near Sinclair Deluxe - not even a sign - (maybe why they (devs) removed it from the game - the Limbo Room sells booze/whatever). One of my 'peers' instead say its justified because there might have been one in some blocked off section or another that  they could have gone to the actual (ritzy) one in Fort Frolic when the Audio Diary specifically says local gin joints being Sinclairs 'good idea'.

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The verbage in the Sinclair Deluxe main wiki page (also reverted)  says  "Sinclair admitted in an audio diary that once he got a citizen dependent on him, he liked to keep them that way, so he milked them for what they were worth. One of these methods was by offering the buildings tenants discounts at his liquor stores,"

Is any of this factual or just supposition ? (isn't THAT simply reading into the audio diary more than what is there?)   Sinclair talks about wanting to sell booze to some 'bankrupt fat cat' (a type he, in other places, makes derisive remarks about).   Isn't this Sinclair thinking that being the one to sell to them  was a business opportunity ??   I don't recall seeing anywhere talk of him giving discounts on the booze sold to his renters.   Those things were much of what I had removed as being 'speculation'.

-

SO is my logic above too hard to follow of why those old wiki texts were incorrect/speculation ??




mod stated :

The wording for the quote "Sinclair admitted in an audio diary [...]" is strangely formulated and slightly inaccurate, but it is nonetheless true that Sinclair used Sinclair Spirits in conjunction with the Sinclair Deluxe to fleece the population. That Audio Diary is not in the game but is nonetheless canon , as are the Audio Diaries from the Cult of Rapture website that do not contradict in-game canon. The quality of the hotel's materials can be easily established in-game, and while focusing on the construction materials might be a bit too specific, the Sinclair Deluxe is clearly shabby.

If the argument of your peer was that there might have been a Sinclair Spirits out there, then that would be speculation. However, it is nonetheless correct that there is one in Pauper's Drop, again as evidenced in the Audio Diary. Seeing as you only travel through a small portion of the entire district, the fact that you didn't see one in-game doesn't contradict its existence. --zzzzzzzzzzzzzz (talk) 09:59, September 16, 2014 (UTC)

^^^

... "it is nonetheless correct that there is one in Pauper's Drop"

I disagree.  There is no evidence that there WAS a Sinclair Spirits there.   Neither does Sinclair declare there was one.   Fleece is a commonly seen as a synonym for 'cheat' -- which I also don't agree with as a description of what Sinclair might have been talking about wanting to do. (No evidence of 'discounts' or selling them anything they couldn't get anywhere else or dependence or other suppositions the main pages currently contain)


^^^^

THIS is the Kind of Logic from the moderators of that wiki First, I think they needed to actually look up the definition of "Canon" --if they were going to throw that term around.

.

I reply with an attempt to demonstrate why the logic they want to use is faulty by using this alternate type of "logic" they seem to be employing :

I can think of many many things that MIGHT have been behind locked/blocked/inaccessible doors and 'other parts' of every section of Rapture/Columbia . SORRY - THATS NOT REALLY VALID EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF THE ASSUMPTIONS I WAS REMOVING.

So YOU are now STATING that  the merest hint/turn of phrase  in an audio diary  (or other mention)  of an idea for things NOT actually seen in the game IS now the standard for including such speculatively derived information on the main pages of this wiki (and then referencing it as a  basis for conclusions) ??? xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 12:32, September 16, 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately such reasoning doesnt appear to have worked much :



What I am stating is that this audio diary is evidence that there is a Sinclair Spirits in Pauper's Drop, as it would make no sense otherwise. Similarly, Sinclair's attitude and business practices are also clear evidence that he is trying to cheat the population out of their money. It is now you who are engaging in commentary. --zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (talk) 18:55, September 16, 2014 (UTC)

^^^

Yes it made no sense then in the game as presented which may have been the reason it was intentionally discarded.

So NO it is NOT evidence that it existed in the actual game, just that they had contemplated and even gone far enough to create that asset and then decided not to use it - its like all the notes a Composer scratches out of their work musical score (or even ones they tear up or burn) - they aren't the final product as intended to be presented to the audience.  

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Sinclair is also not cheating people out of their money unless you think that 'giving people what they want' is cheating them.   He understands (one assumes) that people have delusions, but that only makes for opportunities, and it is shown that he is good at beating out other people to making a business from those opportunities.    He makes the better deal.

You do remember the guy he has doing piecemeal work assembling syringes (Audio Diary "What_a_Snap") which offsets (Audio Diary)"Profit_Coming,_Profit_Going" -- pointed to by thge ignorant as evidence of Sinclair being dishonest or whatever.

But if you know anything about real business you can realize those tiny viewpoint vignettes in the game distort/leave out most of the details of such a business relation - the risks and expenses Sinclair takes, the fact that he's giving that guy a job he might not otherwise have, all the other aspects of the business transaction to Ryan that Sinclair has to work to arrange and organize.  Its the same with everything they show of Sinclair in the game (and the vagueness with so many other aspects - they are playing of the ignorance of your typical player) - they are trying to make Sinclair out 'the bad one' so you distrust him, when the opposite is eventually shown (an attempted 'twist' I guess).

But being a 'game', realities like that are mostly obscurred to make out Sinclair as a cardboard cutout villain in what first and foreemost is a shoot-em-up game. xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

BTW what other 'admins' are still active?  They might have a different take on your opinion here. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 01:35, September 17, 2014 (UTC)


Why do you keep on saying that it was removed? It wasn't removed (ie taken out with malice or deliberate intention [or "torn up & burned" as you alluded]), it was made available via social media (the Cult of Rapture website, which was set up by the game creators before the launch of Bio2 to spread the narrative and get people excited).

The 1) "GOOD GENES RANT", "Gatherer's Flu", "Your Place of Work", these were actually "removed." For one reason or another, they were deliberately made unavailable and can only be found in the game's code. The diaries from the Cult of Rapture aren't considered "removed" in the deliberate sense. Ryan Amusements (Audio Diary) isn't in the game (it's from the site), but we still acknowledge that Sofia Lamb consulted with Ryan Amusements even though it's not mentioned within the game.

Why do you assume that we all "don't understand business" or hate capitalism. It's really condescending of you to "explain" it to us each time. The inflamatory verbage on The Sinclair Deluxe will be change to something more objective, but the fact that we use words like "fleece" or "cheat" to describe Sinclair's actions here on the TALK PAGES (as opposed to the main article) is not the issue. It's really a waste of your time (and credibility) to rebuke those comments here. Those are our opinions and we're entitled to them.

In the real world, there would not be a problem with Sinclair's business practices. But here's the thing: He's a Video Game Character (NOT some misunderstood histoic figure, Not your friend.). Specifically, he's supposed to be a villainous character right up until he finds redemption with Subject Delta. He's meant to represent the worst of capitalistic greed via his machiavellian or opportunistic actions. His home field trial for Plasmids, in which he supplied a terrified populace with untested, dangerous substances, contributed the most to the loss of Rapture's humanity. He's an extreme, but he's also a cautionary tale. If you can't understand that you've entierly missed the point of who Sincalir is.

"what other 'admins' are still active?" Class act. yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy (talk) 03:14, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

^^^

And Yes a "class act" --- to wonder if the rather strange standards being given above are the consensus of the other people in charge of this wiki??   Having an 'admin'  declaring it (Sinclair Spirits) is there (in Paupers Drop) even though its obviously NOT there (in Paupers Drop) is rather hard logic to follow for most people.

"which was set up by the game creators before the launch of Bio2 to spread the narrative and get people excited"   --   you mean just like all the trailers for Infinite (with so many story mutations its hard to keep track of them all) ???    Or will you now claim thats just not the same??      Don't we (the wiki) usually mark specially the things that aren't from the actual game ? (ie- the Novel seems to NOT be considered Canon)

Sorry, its generally assumed that WHATS IN THE ACTUAL GAME trumps external content -- particularly when the externals stuff is in contradiction with whats in the game.

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"Why do you assume that we all don't"   


^^^

Why do you assume most people DO (and that the vagaries are left in rather as one-dimensional painting of many of the game characters).   DO most people know that that $12 pizza they buy has 25cents worth of materials in it ??   Are they suprised to hear it when they are told?     You're Assuming that I'm assuming that you hate capitalism is your assumption.  As I've said before the makers of the game are painting many distortions because it is the setting they want to justify a Failtopia that players can go pew-pew in.

You now defend the loose use of "fleece" or "cheat" to describe Sinclair's actions -   but then at the same time  you assume all of Sinclair's colorful verbage then is Literal AND must be interpretted that way instead of the condescension/disdain he expresses  ie- 'slum' 'rathole' etc...  (many times of those with pretensions who he delights in seeing fallen from their high perches)

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In the real world,   

Isn't one of the big aspects of BioShock (Rapture) the Nostalgia  - which is some presenting of that world from 60 years ago - a place build in rejection of where that world had already gone.   So is it not justified to expect a little real world logic to be included in a game of that type ?????

Sinclair 'their villain' gives people a choice, which is more than you saw Sofia Lamb, Fontaine or Sander Cohen give the people they used/murdered.  Sinclair sells people what they think they want, or with a better deal than his competitors.    No, the worst of 'capitalism' is Fontaine extorting his workers into low wages and killing them if they disagreed. Sofia doesnt even believe in capitalism. Fontaine only if its by HIS rules.

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contributed the most to the loss of Rapture's humanity  

- You assume a mechanism to justify a Multiplayer game AFTER THE FACT  of the original two games' content (no mention in them once of this Consumer Test Program... ) is evidence?     Did he kidnap the people or brainwash them into volunteering??  (all dozen or so people --  we aren't sure weren't the ONLY dozen or so involved ... (again vaguaries with no detail)  

I don't recall seeing any players there laying on the ground having seizures from their Tonic/Plasmid malfunctioning or experimental guns exploding in their faces (do you??)  So obviously not quite so 'experimental'  (this all making assumption that the whole thing isn't like I said : just a flimsy RetCon to justify the developers making money on a MP addon). xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 06:17, September 17, 2014 (UTC)



Okay, now you're just getting into major opinionated debate, which is not what this is about. Unfortunately for you, anon, I am the only active admin on this wiki, and seeing as you're alone in disagreeing versus two other users (my authority as admin doesn't come in here), you are not in a position to express your opinion as fact. You have shown that you are clearly not objective in this discussion, and that despite your projection, it is you who are trying to put forth your opinions into the mainspace. Please take a step back and take some time to cool down a little, as you're not going to be productive in the emotional state you're in right now. --zzzzzzzzzzzzzz (talk) 07:40, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

^^^

SO Nobody else should then be able to express their opinion as fact.... OK I went with that and when I removed 'opinion as fact' certain 'peers' didnt like it.

BTW I notice you don't talk that way to the other poster whom you happen to agree with (please read their approach to argument again to see them labeling 'troll' etc..).  I was just answering argument point with argument point, which you are free to misinterpret as 'emotional'.    Using the other's words.... "class act".  But I just see it as being able to explain my position.  And some people cannot handle that apparently   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 10:44, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, Usual tactic of argument by namecalling ... Not quite cricket in the debating rules.

-

Heh, I particularly like the accusation of being emotional -- its an old loser tactic - when you cannot argue with Fact, Logic or Reason  to  just declare the other sides argument as null, one way or another. BINGO !!!!

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Its Very strange (inconsistant) when the company-authorized Novel "Bioshock: Rapture" is NOT considered canon for the wiki (there is alot of debate and talk on TVTropes about 'Canon').

BUT some Audio Diary kept on a (promotional) website (and NOT used in the game) somehow IS Canon (read the arguments above on both sides of that to see what I am talking about). 

THEY somehow read into that audio diary text (REMOVED FROM GAME/NEVER USED IN GAMEPLAY) some meanings which were (on that WIKI) used to create some unsupported opinions/assumption about Sinclair (All which I'm talking about and refuting).

My reccommendation would be (for a WIKI who says they dont want opinion or assumptions) to : JUST have the words of the Audio Diary there, and let Sinclair speak for himself, and let the people who read it make up their minds for themselves.



And it went on. I wasnt able to convince them of the preconceptions and inconsistencies.

The problem with this wiki/posting system that DOESNT have indent replies/inserts in ythe TALK pages  : Arguement/counterargument quickly becomes a mess (try matching up reply arguments with what they are referring to, and it suddenly gets very strung out/disjoint and repetitive, and something even (or particularly) the Mods hardly even try to read.

On that Wiki they never did come up with a integrated way to offer multiple interpretations of the game happenings -- which might have added alot for the readers, and not just have the site be a regurgitation of the game events (and left it as limited / one-sided speculation/interpretation).


NOTE- The RaptureRebornMMORPG wiki is ALL opinion.

So we won't have any such problems, and alternate interpretations can be discussed intelligently.


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